ok i finally got my refractory lining in my furnace...how long should i wait before i can take out the center piece holding up the lining?
--- In gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com, "oldstudentmsgt" <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:
>
> I believe he's thinking PDF format, but not certain. I AM certainly looking forward to it, though! ;)
>
> Bill in OKC
>
> --- In gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz <websterindustro@> wrote:
> >
> > Good timing I was about to download the book yesterday. A tight wallet caused me to leave Amazon for another day, fate maybe. He wouldn't by chance be publishing it in an electronic form would he? I'm thinking a Kindle or iBooks format.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> > On Apr 24, 2011, at 9:27 PM, oldstudentmsgt <wmrmeyers@> wrote:
> >
> > > Mike has another book due out soonish (not certain exactly when) that he says will be much better than the old one. When I mentioned a couple of months ago buying one of his old ones, he suggested I wait until his new one is out...
> > >
> > > Best advice I can gives is to wait. I've been playing with a 3/8" burner he built recently, and it's a sweet and easy to make design.
> > >
> > > If all else fails, join casting hobby, and see what others have posted about it.
> > >
> > > HTH!
> > >
> > > Bill in OKC
> > >
> > > --- In gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com, Carl <carl_r2000@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Â Â http://www.amazon.com/Gas-Burners-Forges-Furnaces-Kilns/dp/1879535203/ref=sr_1_19?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1303588161&sr=1-19Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
> > >> Jim:"Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, and Kilns". This book is from 2004 an
> > >> maybe somebody here would know if he has a website with updated info. He does
> > >> post on the Yahoo group "Castinghobby". If you want to learn all you can I would
> > >> join that and also the group associated with this group "Hobbycasting". Another
> > >> good book is "Build an Oil Fired Tilting Furnace" by Stephen Chastain. I know
> > >> these guys will say this is unnecessary but Stephen has a lot of technical
> > >> information like how many BTUs it takes to heat a given amount of aluminum to
> > >> it's melting point. I enjoy that info but if you aren't interested you can just
> > >> read about how to build the furnace. I believe it is also on Amazon. Buy both
> > >> for free shipping.
> > >> Carl                                                                                                                                    Â
> > >> http://www.stephenchastain.com/book4.htm
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: Jim Holligan <jtholligan@>
> > >> To: gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com
> > >> Sent: Sat, April 23, 2011 12:29:21 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [gingery_machines] Re: refractory lining...
> > >>
> > >> Â
> > >> Carl
> > >> What is the name of the book?
> > >> Jim
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: Carl <carl_r2000@>
> > >> To: gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com
> > >> Sent: Sat, April 23, 2011 11:36:47 AM
> > >> Subject: Re: [gingery_machines] Re: refractory lining...
> > >>
> > >> Â
> > >> Jim:I certainly agree with you. Even though some of these experienced guys don't
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> agree with me the resulting discussion has got them to reveal a lot of
> > >> information that is very helpful. I was looking in my casting folder I started 3
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> years ago and there is a lot more there than I remembered. I will post some of
> > >> it here as I get time. You might want to buy Michael Porters book. Check it out.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Carl
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: Jim Holligan <jtholligan@>
> > >> To: gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com
> > >> Sent: Sat, April 23, 2011 10:51:38 AM
> > >> Subject: Re: [gingery_machines] Re: refractory lining...
> > >>
> > >> Â
> > >> I have both "The Charcoal Foundry" & "Building a gas fired Crucible Furnace" by
> > >> David Gingery and "Making Crucibles" by Vince Gingery, also "The Metalcaster's
> > >> Bible" by C.W. Ammen. The 'pitfalls' I'm thinking about are the ones that I'm
> > >> failing to think about. The advice and comments in this forum might cause me to
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> think about those unknown (to me)  or forgotten things. I believe that failing
> > >> to plan is planning to fail. We learn from our mistakes and from the mistakes
> > >> of others as well. This forum provides information on the Successes and on the
> > >> Failures in this endeavor. Thanks for your help.
> > >> Jim
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: Wonk <tiwonk@>
> > >> To: gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com
> > >> Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 8:29:35 PM
> > >> Subject: [gingery_machines] Re: refractory lining...
> > >>
> > >> Â
> > >> The Gingery design works fine if you have the book! Mike Porter's book will
> > >> upgrade to a natural aspirated propane burner and a better furnace design, add
> > >> in you own thoughts! If your waiting for one of us to shoot the magic bullet
> > >> then you might be waiting awhile. No matter how much you study and plan there
> > >> will always be Oh darn wish I had done that. I'm not sure what 'pitfalls' your
> > >> thinking of but I'm sure there are plenty!
> > >>
> > >> Cheers Wonk
> > >>
> > >> --- In gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com, Jim Holligan <jtholligan@> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm hoping to use the advice and experience of the members of this forum to
> > >>> avoid some of the pitfalls of building the first furnace and burner.
> > >>> Jim
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ________________________________
> > >>> From: Wonk <tiwonk@>
> > >>> To: gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com
> > >>> Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 7:21:02 PM
> > >>> Subject: [gingery_machines] Re: refractory lining...
> > >>>
> > >>> ÂÂ
> > >>> I'm getting a kick out of all the imagined linings and wondering how much loss
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> or times add or subtract, etc. In my opinion if you haven't built a furnace
> > >>> then
> > >>>
> > >>> there is nothing to compare! I say build a coffee can size furnace and start
> > >>> melting. The expense will be low and you will learn a few things along the way
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> that will help you build a satisfactory furnace in a bigger size. Empty paint
> > >>> cans can be found at Home Depot, Ace hardware sells 2400 degree refractory
> > >>> furnace cement. All the parts needed for a Mikey or other style natural
> > >>> aspirated burner at Lowes , Home Depot, Ace, etc. For under $50.00 you can be
> > >>> melting in a few days with a bit of effort. Think about what you want to cast
> > >>> and make a pattern or two. Once you have cast your first object you will see
> > >>> this is not rocket science allthough many want to launch into casting iron when
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> baby steps into zinc alloy or aluminum should be first!
> > >>>
> > >>> Everything can be improved but you have to build a prototype before lauching to
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> the moon!
> > >>>
> > >>> Wonk
> > >>>
> > >>> --- In gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com, Carl <carl_r2000@> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Bill:If you add 3" of insulating refractory I think that will slow the heat
> > >>>> loss
> > >>>>
> > >>>> from the inner 2" allowing the inner two inches to heat up faster. The time
> > >>> to
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> melt the firstÃÆ'‚ÂÂ charge will only be affected by the temperature of the
> > >>> inside
> > >>>
> > >>>> surface of the furnace. It doesn't matter what the temperature of the out
> > >>>> refractory is. Even though the outer 3" will be heating up the whole time
> > >>> they
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> will still slow the heat loss from the inner two inches as comparedÃÆ'‚ÂÂ to no
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>> insulation.ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ Lets look at it another way. You say adding refractory
> > >>>> willÃÆ'‚ÂÂ increase
> > >>>>
> > >>>> the melting time. Then taking away refractory must decrease melting time. 1"
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> of
> > >>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> refractory willÃÆ'‚ÂÂ allow the firstÃÆ'‚ÂÂ charge to meltÃÆ'‚ÂÂ faster than 2". 1/2"
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> would be
> > >>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> even faster.ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ Of course it would be impossible to build but say you only
> > >>> had
> > >>>
> > >>>> 0.001" of refractory. That wouldÃÆ'‚ÂÂ heat up instantly but there would be so
> > >>> much
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> heat loss your charge might never melt. I think whenever you add more
> > >>>> insulation
> > >>>>
> > >>>> you allow the important inner layer to heat faster.ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ CarlÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ________________________________
> > >>>> From: oldstudentmsgt <wmrmeyers@>
> > >>>> To: gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com
> > >>>> Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 4:24:27 AM
> > >>>> Subject: [gingery_machines] Re: refractory lining...
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > >>>> Carl, I'm by no means a furnace expert, but don't forget that however much
> > >>>> refractory you have must come up to temperature before your metal will melt
> > >>>> properly. If you only need two inches, and have 5 inches, it will take longer
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> to
> > >>>>
> > >>>> heat the much larger mass to melting temperature. And until it gets there is
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>> will suck heat out of the flame and away from the crucible.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> You gotta balance several variable, not just one or two.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> HTH!
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Bill in OKC
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --- In gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com, Carl <carl_r2000@> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Rex:When you said the 10 pounds of aluminum would take a long time to heat
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> up
> > >>>
> > >>>> I
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> was only looking at it from the aspect of refractory thickness. I see your
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>>> point
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> that a larger furnace would be inefficient with a small crucible. I was
> > >>> going
> > >>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> to
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> make my furnace as big as could for the refractory I have. That doesn't
> > >>> seem
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>> like such a good idea anymore. I still think thatÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ a
> > >>> furnaceÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ with 5
> > >>>
> > >>>> inches of
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> refractory will heat up faster than an identical furnace with only 2 inches
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> of
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> refractory. I am not sure what your opinion is on that one aspect. I
> > >>> thought
> > >>>
> > >>>> I
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> had it explained pretty good but some places you didn't follow
> > >>> whatÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ I was
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>> trying
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> to say.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ If you disagree I will try and explain it a little more
> > >>> clearly. I
> > >>>
> > >>>> am
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> glad I got you started on your "blather". Thanks CarlÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> ________________________________
> > >>>>> From: Rexarino <rexarino@>
> > >>>>> To: gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com
> > >>>>> Sent: Wed, April 20, 2011 4:07:56 PM
> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [gingery_machines] refractory lining...
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > >>>>> Carl, I've inserted my thoughts. I see that you have posted other
> > >> messages,
> > >>>>> so here's some more fuel for this fire.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Carl <carl_r2000@> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Rex:" This furnace will be rather inefficient for melting say, 10 pounds
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> of
> > >>>>>> aluminum -you'll spend 45 minutes to an hour getting the mass of
> > >>> refractory
> > >>>>>> up
> > >>>>>> to
> > >>>>>> temp." Since I have yet to complete my first furnace I have no actual
> > >>>>>> experience
> > >>>>>> with this. Even though you have a much more experience than I do I doubt
> > >>>>>> you
> > >>>>>> have timed how long it takes to melt aluminum in two furnaces that are
> > >>>>>> identical
> > >>>>>> except for the thickness of the refractory.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> That is correct, I've only seen differing furnaces - BUT, there are more
> > >>>>> reasons than the refractory for the long melt times. Beware, you've just
> > >>>>> given me license to write yet more blather on the subject.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Say we have a furnace with 2" of
> > >>>>>> refractory. When you start it burning much of the heat is going into the
> > >>>>>> refractory. This will not allow the inside temperature to rise and melt
> > >>> the
> > >>>>>> aluminum.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Actually, much heat goes into the crucible and cold metal and out the hole
> > >>>>> in the top.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> After a while the refractory will heat up and reach a stable
> > >>>>>> temperature.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The "stable temperature" is pretty high, somewhere near the top of the
> > >>>>> available heat for the fuel of choice, IF THE BURNER is large enough (and
> > >>>>> the correct size). The stable temp will be determined by heat loss vs.
> > >> heat
> > >>>>> introduced, and loss through the refractory is small by comparison to
> > >> other
> > >>>>> factors.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> All the while refractory heats up it is losing heat to the outside
> > >>>>>> air.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> A very minor quibble here. I can feel the cold metal shell of my and
> > >>>>> Jarod's furnace not getting hot for the first few minutes of operation. It
> > >>>>> takes a finite amount of time for the heat to penetrate the refractory.
> > >>>>> However, the air above the furnace gets hot very quickly, and continues to
> > >>>>> radiate heat for the duration of the melt. Personally, I'm sure I loose
> > >>>>> lots more heat out the top than through the refractory, and near the end
> > >> of
> > >>>>> my diatribe I'll give you some evidence.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> As it gets hotter more heat will be lost. The greater the temperature
> > >>>>>> differential from inside it outside the more heat will be lost.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I don't think I agree with the implications of that statement. The heat
> > >>>>> produced and available to heat metal is pretty constant after a few
> > >> minutes
> > >>>>> of burner warm-up - it's mostly a function of the burner fuel and
> > >>> efficiency
> > >>>>> and the "heat dump" - the opening at the top. If thicker refractory
> > >>>>> (greater temp differential) caused more heat loss, we would all avoid
> > >> using
> > >>>>> thick refractory. What melts metal is more heat in - than being lost, and
> > >>>>> efficiency and venting are the big factors.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> The air
> > >>>>>> temperature will stay relatively constant.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The air temp in the furnace will constantly rise until the furnace reaches
> > >>>>> equilibrium, the "stable temp" referred to above. The temperature of the
> > >>>>> refractory will rise until the heat difference across the refractory is
> > >>>>> determined by the radiation at the exterior surface. More refractory means
> > >>>>> longer to get hot, but does not limit maximum heat.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Now add 3" of extra refractory to the
> > >>>>>> original 2". Instead of the heat being lost to the air the heat will go
> > >>> to
> > >>>>>> the
> > >>>>>> outside 3" of refractory and cause it to start heating up. With only 2"
> > >>> of
> > >>>>>> refractory the temperature at the outside of the two inches was the
> > >>>>>> constant
> > >>>>>> temperature of the air. Now as the temperature o
> >
>
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