added some new furnace pictures btw!!
--- In gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com, "anthony" <ima_cute_dork@...> wrote:
>
> ok i finally got my refractory lining in my furnace...how long should i wait before i can take out the center piece holding up the lining?
>
> --- In gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com, "oldstudentmsgt" <wmrmeyers@> wrote:
> >
> > I believe he's thinking PDF format, but not certain. I AM certainly looking forward to it, though! ;)
> >
> > Bill in OKC
> >
> > --- In gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com, David Frantz <websterindustro@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Good timing I was about to download the book yesterday. A tight wallet caused me to leave Amazon for another day, fate maybe. He wouldn't by chance be publishing it in an electronic form would he? I'm thinking a Kindle or iBooks format.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPad
> > >
> > > On Apr 24, 2011, at 9:27 PM, oldstudentmsgt <wmrmeyers@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Mike has another book due out soonish (not certain exactly when) that he says will be much better than the old one. When I mentioned a couple of months ago buying one of his old ones, he suggested I wait until his new one is out...
> > > >
> > > > Best advice I can gives is to wait. I've been playing with a 3/8" burner he built recently, and it's a sweet and easy to make design.
> > > >
> > > > If all else fails, join casting hobby, and see what others have posted about it.
> > > >
> > > > HTH!
> > > >
> > > > Bill in OKC
> > > >
> > > > --- In gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com, Carl <carl_r2000@> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Â Â http://www.amazon.com/Gas-Burners-Forges-Furnaces-Kilns/dp/1879535203/ref=sr_1_19?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1303588161&sr=1-19Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â
> > > >> Jim:"Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, and Kilns". This book is from 2004 an
> > > >> maybe somebody here would know if he has a website with updated info. He does
> > > >> post on the Yahoo group "Castinghobby". If you want to learn all you can I would
> > > >> join that and also the group associated with this group "Hobbycasting". Another
> > > >> good book is "Build an Oil Fired Tilting Furnace" by Stephen Chastain. I know
> > > >> these guys will say this is unnecessary but Stephen has a lot of technical
> > > >> information like how many BTUs it takes to heat a given amount of aluminum to
> > > >> it's melting point. I enjoy that info but if you aren't interested you can just
> > > >> read about how to build the furnace. I believe it is also on Amazon. Buy both
> > > >> for free shipping.
> > > >> Carl                                                                                                                                    Â
> > > >> http://www.stephenchastain.com/book4.htm
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Jim Holligan <jtholligan@>
> > > >> To: gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com
> > > >> Sent: Sat, April 23, 2011 12:29:21 PM
> > > >> Subject: Re: [gingery_machines] Re: refractory lining...
> > > >>
> > > >> Â
> > > >> Carl
> > > >> What is the name of the book?
> > > >> Jim
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Carl <carl_r2000@>
> > > >> To: gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com
> > > >> Sent: Sat, April 23, 2011 11:36:47 AM
> > > >> Subject: Re: [gingery_machines] Re: refractory lining...
> > > >>
> > > >> Â
> > > >> Jim:I certainly agree with you. Even though some of these experienced guys don't
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> agree with me the resulting discussion has got them to reveal a lot of
> > > >> information that is very helpful. I was looking in my casting folder I started 3
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> years ago and there is a lot more there than I remembered. I will post some of
> > > >> it here as I get time. You might want to buy Michael Porters book. Check it out.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Carl
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Jim Holligan <jtholligan@>
> > > >> To: gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com
> > > >> Sent: Sat, April 23, 2011 10:51:38 AM
> > > >> Subject: Re: [gingery_machines] Re: refractory lining...
> > > >>
> > > >> Â
> > > >> I have both "The Charcoal Foundry" & "Building a gas fired Crucible Furnace" by
> > > >> David Gingery and "Making Crucibles" by Vince Gingery, also "The Metalcaster's
> > > >> Bible" by C.W. Ammen. The 'pitfalls' I'm thinking about are the ones that I'm
> > > >> failing to think about. The advice and comments in this forum might cause me to
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> think about those unknown (to me)  or forgotten things. I believe that failing
> > > >> to plan is planning to fail. We learn from our mistakes and from the mistakes
> > > >> of others as well. This forum provides information on the Successes and on the
> > > >> Failures in this endeavor. Thanks for your help.
> > > >> Jim
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Wonk <tiwonk@>
> > > >> To: gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com
> > > >> Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 8:29:35 PM
> > > >> Subject: [gingery_machines] Re: refractory lining...
> > > >>
> > > >> Â
> > > >> The Gingery design works fine if you have the book! Mike Porter's book will
> > > >> upgrade to a natural aspirated propane burner and a better furnace design, add
> > > >> in you own thoughts! If your waiting for one of us to shoot the magic bullet
> > > >> then you might be waiting awhile. No matter how much you study and plan there
> > > >> will always be Oh darn wish I had done that. I'm not sure what 'pitfalls' your
> > > >> thinking of but I'm sure there are plenty!
> > > >>
> > > >> Cheers Wonk
> > > >>
> > > >> --- In gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com, Jim Holligan <jtholligan@> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I'm hoping to use the advice and experience of the members of this forum to
> > > >>> avoid some of the pitfalls of building the first furnace and burner.
> > > >>> Jim
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ________________________________
> > > >>> From: Wonk <tiwonk@>
> > > >>> To: gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com
> > > >>> Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 7:21:02 PM
> > > >>> Subject: [gingery_machines] Re: refractory lining...
> > > >>>
> > > >>> ÂÂ
> > > >>> I'm getting a kick out of all the imagined linings and wondering how much loss
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> or times add or subtract, etc. In my opinion if you haven't built a furnace
> > > >>> then
> > > >>>
> > > >>> there is nothing to compare! I say build a coffee can size furnace and start
> > > >>> melting. The expense will be low and you will learn a few things along the way
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> that will help you build a satisfactory furnace in a bigger size. Empty paint
> > > >>> cans can be found at Home Depot, Ace hardware sells 2400 degree refractory
> > > >>> furnace cement. All the parts needed for a Mikey or other style natural
> > > >>> aspirated burner at Lowes , Home Depot, Ace, etc. For under $50.00 you can be
> > > >>> melting in a few days with a bit of effort. Think about what you want to cast
> > > >>> and make a pattern or two. Once you have cast your first object you will see
> > > >>> this is not rocket science allthough many want to launch into casting iron when
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> baby steps into zinc alloy or aluminum should be first!
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Everything can be improved but you have to build a prototype before lauching to
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> the moon!
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Wonk
> > > >>>
> > > >>> --- In gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com, Carl <carl_r2000@> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Bill:If you add 3" of insulating refractory I think that will slow the heat
> > > >>>> loss
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> from the inner 2" allowing the inner two inches to heat up faster. The time
> > > >>> to
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> melt the firstÃÆ'‚ÂÂ charge will only be affected by the temperature of the
> > > >>> inside
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> surface of the furnace. It doesn't matter what the temperature of the out
> > > >>>> refractory is. Even though the outer 3" will be heating up the whole time
> > > >>> they
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> will still slow the heat loss from the inner two inches as comparedÃÆ'‚ÂÂ to no
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>> insulation.ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ Lets look at it another way. You say adding refractory
> > > >>>> willÃÆ'‚ÂÂ increase
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> the melting time. Then taking away refractory must decrease melting time. 1"
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> of
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> refractory willÃÆ'‚ÂÂ allow the firstÃÆ'‚ÂÂ charge to meltÃÆ'‚ÂÂ faster than 2". 1/2"
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> would be
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> even faster.ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ Of course it would be impossible to build but say you only
> > > >>> had
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> 0.001" of refractory. That wouldÃÆ'‚ÂÂ heat up instantly but there would be so
> > > >>> much
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> heat loss your charge might never melt. I think whenever you add more
> > > >>>> insulation
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> you allow the important inner layer to heat faster.ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ CarlÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> ________________________________
> > > >>>> From: oldstudentmsgt <wmrmeyers@>
> > > >>>> To: gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com
> > > >>>> Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 4:24:27 AM
> > > >>>> Subject: [gingery_machines] Re: refractory lining...
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >>>> Carl, I'm by no means a furnace expert, but don't forget that however much
> > > >>>> refractory you have must come up to temperature before your metal will melt
> > > >>>> properly. If you only need two inches, and have 5 inches, it will take longer
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> to
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> heat the much larger mass to melting temperature. And until it gets there is
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>> will suck heat out of the flame and away from the crucible.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> You gotta balance several variable, not just one or two.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> HTH!
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Bill in OKC
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> --- In gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com, Carl <carl_r2000@> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Rex:When you said the 10 pounds of aluminum would take a long time to heat
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> up
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> I
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> was only looking at it from the aspect of refractory thickness. I see your
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> point
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> that a larger furnace would be inefficient with a small crucible. I was
> > > >>> going
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> to
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> make my furnace as big as could for the refractory I have. That doesn't
> > > >>> seem
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> like such a good idea anymore. I still think thatÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ a
> > > >>> furnaceÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ with 5
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> inches of
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> refractory will heat up faster than an identical furnace with only 2 inches
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> of
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> refractory. I am not sure what your opinion is on that one aspect. I
> > > >>> thought
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> I
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> had it explained pretty good but some places you didn't follow
> > > >>> whatÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ I was
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> trying
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> to say.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ If you disagree I will try and explain it a little more
> > > >>> clearly. I
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> am
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> glad I got you started on your "blather". Thanks CarlÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> ________________________________
> > > >>>>> From: Rexarino <rexarino@>
> > > >>>>> To: gingery_machines@yahoogroups.com
> > > >>>>> Sent: Wed, April 20, 2011 4:07:56 PM
> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [gingery_machines] refractory lining...
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ
> > > >>>>> Carl, I've inserted my thoughts. I see that you have posted other
> > > >> messages,
> > > >>>>> so here's some more fuel for this fire.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Carl <carl_r2000@> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Rex:" This furnace will be rather inefficient for melting say, 10 pounds
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>> of
> > > >>>>>> aluminum -you'll spend 45 minutes to an hour getting the mass of
> > > >>> refractory
> > > >>>>>> up
> > > >>>>>> to
> > > >>>>>> temp." Since I have yet to complete my first furnace I have no actual
> > > >>>>>> experience
> > > >>>>>> with this. Even though you have a much more experience than I do I doubt
> > > >>>>>> you
> > > >>>>>> have timed how long it takes to melt aluminum in two furnaces that are
> > > >>>>>> identical
> > > >>>>>> except for the thickness of the refractory.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> That is correct, I've only seen differing furnaces - BUT, there are more
> > > >>>>> reasons than the refractory for the long melt times. Beware, you've just
> > > >>>>> given me license to write yet more blather on the subject.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Say we have a furnace with 2" of
> > > >>>>>> refractory. When you start it burning much of the heat is going into the
> > > >>>>>> refractory. This will not allow the inside temperature to rise and melt
> > > >>> the
> > > >>>>>> aluminum.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Actually, much heat goes into the crucible and cold metal and out the hole
> > > >>>>> in the top.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> After a while the refractory will heat up and reach a stable
> > > >>>>>> temperature.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> The "stable temperature" is pretty high, somewhere near the top of the
> > > >>>>> available heat for the fuel of choice, IF THE BURNER is large enough (and
> > > >>>>> the correct size). The stable temp will be determined by heat loss vs.
> > > >> heat
> > > >>>>> introduced, and loss through the refractory is small by comparison to
> > > >> other
> > > >>>>> factors.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> All the while refractory heats up it is losing heat to the outside
> > > >>>>>> air.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> A very minor quibble here. I can feel the cold metal shell of my and
> > > >>>>> Jarod's furnace not getting hot for the first few minutes of operation. It
> > > >>>>> takes a finite amount of time for the heat to penetrate the refractory.
> > > >>>>> However, the air above the furnace gets hot very quickly, and continues to
> > > >>>>> radiate heat for the duration of the melt. Personally, I'm sure I loose
> > > >>>>> lots more heat out the top than through the refractory, and near the end
> > > >> of
> > > >>>>> my diatribe I'll give you some evidence.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> As it gets hotter more heat will be lost. The greater the temperature
> > > >>>>>> differential from inside it outside the more heat will be lost.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I don't think I agree with the implications of that statement. The heat
> > > >>>>> produced and available to heat metal is pretty constant after a few
> > > >> minutes
> > > >>>>> of burner warm-up - it's mostly a function of the burner fuel and
> > > >>> efficiency
> > > >>>>> and the "heat dump" - the opening at the top. If thicker refractory
> > > >>>>> (greater temp differential) caused more heat loss, we would all avoid
> > > >> using
> > > >>>>> thick refractory. What melts metal is more heat in - than being lost, and
> > > >>>>> efficiency and venting are the big factors.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> The air
> > > >>>>>> temperature will stay relatively constant.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> The air temp in the furnace will constantly rise until the furnace reaches
> > > >>>>> equilibrium, the "stable temp" referred to above. The temperature of the
> > > >>>>> refractory will rise until the heat difference across the refractory is
> > > >>>>> determined by the radiation at the exterior surface. More refractory means
> > > >>>>> longer to get hot, but does not limit maximum heat.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Now add 3" of extra refractory to the
> > > >>>>>> original 2". Instead of the heat being lost to the air the heat will go
> > > >>> to
> > > >>>>>> the
> > > >>>>>> outside 3" of refractory and cause it to start heating up. With only 2"
> > > >>> of
> > > >>>>>> refractory the temperature at the outside of the two inches was the
> > > >>>>>> constant
> > > >>>>>> temperature of the air. Now as the temperature o
> > >
> >
>
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